David Crusoe: awesome five four.

David Crusoe: Good morning i'm speaking with grace call it into I have long admired for work in digital media and, beyond that, in education and policy grace welcome, I would ask you very quickly to introduce yourself so so our listeners know who they're listening to.

Grace Collins: You know, Chris Collins and the founder and CEO celebrate studio, which is an LGBT Q plus interactive media studio.

Grace Collins: We create games and all sorts of stuff so previously lead games in education policy or the executive branch and that over at the US Department of Education and worked at the smithsonian institution.

David Crusoe: Oh there's so much unsaid there right all of the esports team work can out so much Thank you so much for joining the conversation I think we spoke a while ago, and so I have that that privilege of conversation, but in that conversation you shared that you've been thinking about.

David Crusoe: Diversity equity and inclusion within the media you're creating in some really interesting ways, and I remember, for instance, that you'd mentioned.

David Crusoe: Ideas about giving someone sort of a character sheet to represent themselves media we're thinking about some of the other populations, so I wonder, first, how do you think about diversity equity inclusion within the products you create what does that mean to you.

Grace Collins: yeah I think it comes back to.

Grace Collins: Looking at how media is generated and considering forms of media as forms of art and that the media that we created necessarily created within a context.

Grace Collins: it's created within the context of the moment, so the the particular location space time that that media was created, it just has kind of abuse abuse the content with context.

Grace Collins: And then, also the context that is brought to that piece of media from the people who have created it.

Grace Collins: they're really drawing on their their life's experiences and everything else, and so I think we see a lot of folks struggling with how do we diversify the media that we create and get more.

Grace Collins: buy in from folks who don't like necessarily look like the creator of that media, and I think that that is in some ways circular right like if you're trying to diversify your media.

Grace Collins: quickly you need to bring diverse backgrounds and information into the creation of that site, because that is what shifts the context away from the from the like monolithic identities that you bring to it.

Grace Collins: and adds in multiple perspectives.

Grace Collins: So that's why we take like a really strong team based approach to a lot of the work that we do, and why we're so excited to work with people all kinds of different backgrounds.

Grace Collins: And to more places that are meaningful to us.

Grace Collins: As opposed to trying to create media about someone that we don't know.

Grace Collins: How to do something that we've never done.

Grace Collins: But actually building from from life experience and putting those folks on the team.

David Crusoe: And I appreciate that and I have to think.

David Crusoe: How how how I learned and apply from that and so in in in my case, you know i'm a team of one new, there are two or three of us.

David Crusoe: it's it's not simple to create a full panel or team that brings that representation what what are some things that we might do to to learn like, how do we learn about other people, or how do we draw people in, even if we can't see hayden his team members, what does that mean.

Grace Collins: yeah.

Grace Collins: I think that there are good ways and bad ways to do that.

Grace Collins: And you know I think honestly you just have to be really careful that you don't fall into something like tokenism or speaking or others when they could speak for themselves.

Grace Collins: But there's a fine line right and so like there's a recent game that I took a look at that called a resilience that's all about.

Grace Collins: Refugees created by student won the game changed student award I think last year and, and it was it was well done game created knowingly by students who are not refugees and they created it, knowing that this game had to be made, because those people could not be heard.

Grace Collins: But that those people who are in a crisis situation.

Grace Collins: wouldn't have the capabilities to create that game right so so there's really interesting I think paper coming out about that process and how they tried to imbue that process with empathy but it's hard it's a hard process.

Grace Collins: It might be somebody else for you to speak with actually future.

Grace Collins: I think, also there was a project that I worked on.

Grace Collins: Getting funded.

Grace Collins: When I worked at virgin studio.

Grace Collins: partnered with tire.

Grace Collins: which was looking at the ancestral Pablo Pablo and people of Mesa Verde.

Grace Collins: I am not tonight identifies native American.

Grace Collins: As but I recognize the importance of stories and so in that situation I wasn't able to write those stories for them right that would not be right.

Grace Collins: But I was able to help them on help help these organizations unlock funding which allowed them to collaborate directly with different populations from that.

Grace Collins: shirt and allow them to speak literally in the game literally use their voices in the game.

Grace Collins: to share their stories and also to share their and then endangered language.

Grace Collins: So that's not my project right but it's something that I was able to facilitate because without it, and without my understanding and knowledge of how to unlock research funding.

Grace Collins: They wouldn't have the they wouldn't have the financial ability to create that.

Grace Collins: So I think those are two examples, but it, but again it's not it's not a clear cut thing and they're real risks with like the idea of will throw money at these people.

Grace Collins: Because they need to tell their stories and there's real real problems with will will go tell their stories for them so there's it's not a process it's not a it's not a fixed process it's a it's an I think an individual process that makes sense.

David Crusoe: It does and actually I love something within that just to maybe try my own words on is.

David Crusoe: That what you know one approach to creating media is to apply the design thinking process right so formal process empathize with customers and so on.

David Crusoe: But that in in what you're sharing empathy isn't necessarily enough really it's a transition from acting like the person who might be leading the definition of the.

David Crusoe: product to stepping back to be a facilitator of the person who has the voice and rather act as a facilitator between people with the voice and the people who produce so it's a matter of stepping even further back than a normal production process to facilitate rather than to eat.

Grace Collins: Yes, there's a power there's a power dynamic at play and.

Grace Collins: There has to be an affirmative act.

Grace Collins: Of relinquishment of power.

Grace Collins: And that is so against the grain of many forms of product development that I think it's hard and can be disruptive to the product development process.

Grace Collins: Which means that if you're trying to develop a product for the market.

Grace Collins: can lead to market inefficiencies and increased costs.

Grace Collins: But it's something that we have to get better at and have to get right if we're going to.

Grace Collins: create more equitable products, I think.

David Crusoe: yeah so you know 30 seconds left, I just wonder, is there a question that we should ask, as we listen to my three year old wave through legos.

David Crusoe: What what questions should we be asking that hasn't been asked, like what what questions should we all be wrestling with.

Grace Collins: I think a great product, a great question about products is.

Grace Collins: Who gained power from creating this product, and who is gaining power from the product existing.

Grace Collins: And that needs a lot more a lot more exploration, I think, particularly in tech when the product is something that's not tangible and you talk about things like.

Grace Collins: Ai.

Grace Collins: You know, as a product.

Grace Collins: Smart assistance as a product.

Grace Collins: And and other things like that, and all the baggage that.

Grace Collins: comes along with that.

David Crusoe: appreciate that grace Thank you so much for your conversation today, I really, really appreciate that.