David Crusoe: There we go.

Malcom Glenn: cool.

David Crusoe: awesome just going to give myself some blank space so five for.

David Crusoe: Good afternoon, I am joined today by Malcolm Glenn who I found to be truly fascinating individual I am learning so much from you already.

David Crusoe: In the conversation knock them and i'd love to dive into the conversation really it's more than welcome by asking you for So if you could just very, very briefly, introduce yourself we'll dive into then a question about what diversity equity and inclusion might mean to you.

Malcom Glenn: Sure, and thank you, David for bringing forth this conversation, because I think it's a really important one and it's really nice to chat with you.

Malcom Glenn: So, my name is Malcolm Glenn and I do a couple of things, I am an organizational consultant, I am a speaker i'm a writer, and I have a couple of more formal roles in institutions.

Malcom Glenn: always looking to try to improve those institutions to be more focused on questions and principles of equity.

Malcom Glenn: i'm the Director of Public Affairs at better, which is a digital homeownership company focused on making homeownership more accessible to people who have historically been left out of that process.

Malcom Glenn: I am a fellow with a think tank called New America, and specifically their future of land and housing Program.

Malcom Glenn: i'm a senior fellow for an organization called the Center for workforce inclusion were in both.

Malcom Glenn: respects I do a lot of writing and researching and work to understand the issues that are making getting access to safe and affordable housing and getting access to.

Malcom Glenn: High quality and scalable jobs what's making those things more challenging and then as of beginning of this year i've also been an advisor to a really great organization called meteorite and they in specific have an initiative called the Health Action alliance.

Malcom Glenn: Which is an effort to.

Malcom Glenn: spur greater vaccine adoption for covert 19 vaccines.

Malcom Glenn: Specifically, with an underserved communities.

Malcom Glenn: In the business community and so i've been really fortunate enough to be a part of that process as well.

David Crusoe: that's excellent that that is a lot and actually I want to pick up a thread there because i'm curious, for your thinking about something that is that.

David Crusoe: In the work you are doing, accessibility and inclusion sound like they're thought about in a multitude of ways right so accessibility could be traditional a traditional focus say on screen readership and some of the accessibility is around this disability.

David Crusoe: And pardon if i'm using phrases incorrectly I am learning and inclusion can be thought about as a socio economic status inclusion could be a multicultural inclusion what.

David Crusoe: As you think about diversity equity and inclusion work and the sort of the work that you do, what is it what does it mean to you.

Malcom Glenn: really great question and I think you're right that these raises access or accessibility inclusion equity they do have multiple.

Malcom Glenn: definitions and I think about them in a multitude of ways, I think there is one component of access and exit accessibility, that is very much related to.

Malcom Glenn: The disability community and the marginalization, based on physical or mental traits and the challenge, there is, we have come up with solutions to solve most of the problems that have made access from a disability perspective more limited.

Malcom Glenn: We just unfortunately don't have the will or.

Malcom Glenn: The wherewithal to implement those solutions and so you're right that we have screen readers and we have wheelchair accessible vehicles to help people with disabilities.

Malcom Glenn: go to where they need to go and we have amazing technologies that have expanded the scope of access but access is sort of irrelevant in theory if it's not borne out in practice.

Malcom Glenn: And so I spent a lot of time in the context of a number of my roles really thinking about how to tie the existence of solutions to institutions and their willingness to actually implement those solutions.

Malcom Glenn: But you're right that access doesn't in their access is also about geographic access, do you live in a place where you can access the goods or services.

Malcom Glenn: From a company or where you can access the city resources put forth that you qualify for from your local government access can also be monetary in nature, you know you live near thing that you want to engage in in whatever context, but you can't afford it.

Malcom Glenn: And if you are near it, but you can't afford it, you don't have access, if you're near it and you can afford it, but you physically can engage with it, you don't have access, or when you can physically engage with it.

Malcom Glenn: And you can afford it, but you're not close enough to it to actually engage with it.

Malcom Glenn: You don't you don't have access there, so I think you're right that access I try to think of in the broadest way possible, what does it truly mean to.

Malcom Glenn: allow people to better engage with whatever they're trying to better engage with ideally to improve the outcomes for those people in a scalable way.

Malcom Glenn: Inclusion, I think, is a similar proposition right, I think a lot of people talk about inclusion in the context of the broader area of diversity, equity and inclusion and a lot of folks think about inclusion.

Malcom Glenn: Only from an internal perspective right thinking about the internal processes and structures and internal programs.

Malcom Glenn: That make a culture of an organization better or worse, particularly for people who are not as well represented within those organizations, whether that's based on race, gender identity, you know ethnic background.

Malcom Glenn: LGBT Q status, a whole host of different demographic traits disability status the list goes on and on, and I think that's important inclusion is really, really kind of foundational Lee about.

Malcom Glenn: Making people feel welcome and like themselves in an institution but it doesn't stop there.

Malcom Glenn: inclusion is not an end unto itself but inclusion is really a means to an end, I think that end is ultimately.

Malcom Glenn: Making sure that whatever you're doing out in the world, because we're all in some way related to some external, but we want someone to buy our product or you want to make a better policy.

Malcom Glenn: For certain Community or we want something to be released that's going to get awareness or notoriety we're doing something for some sort of external consumption.

Malcom Glenn: And the more we look at inclusion internally as simply a foundational element of inclusion externally, I think the more effective this work is going to be.

Malcom Glenn: Because we can't think of inclusion and diversity and equity and belonging work as simply sort of.

Malcom Glenn: The internal form of that is sort of the water's edge, we have to go beyond that and really start to think about how do we tie together these principles of inclusion into everything that we do so, what we do externally if we buy things from small businesses or suppliers.

Malcom Glenn: Who, we were buying from how we're thinking about who gets.

Malcom Glenn: Recognition within our institution and also importantly, what it means for the communities that we serve out in the world, and so.

Malcom Glenn: um it is more challenging to think of these phrases and words as dynamic and broad, but I think it's also at the end of the day, more effective in terms of producing better outcomes because.

Malcom Glenn: you're doing your very best to leave the fewest people out of that conversation, as you possibly can, and when you do that, then it's more likely that you're going to serve those people in a way that makes sense for them.

David Crusoe: Welcome, thank you, there is so much there so they're actually maybe two to, or at least two threads that i'm going to pull out a little bit.

David Crusoe: The first one goes back to access.

David Crusoe: And I think what I heard there and trying to sort of restate in my own words.

David Crusoe: Is is that one really needs to investigate the journey to something to a product in my case in educational technology product.

David Crusoe: Not from the get go of when someone is sitting at a screen, but far before that you were sharing, for instance.

David Crusoe: Do they know it exists, can they find it if they can find it can they use it, and so on there's a whole chain of experience that begins before the actual contact with product.

David Crusoe: That has as much or more bearing on the use of that thing than the US, the actual product itself right so it's it's like access needs to be thought of in a very holistic way.

David Crusoe: and assessed right, so the question is if populations can't access something a front, they are, by nature, being excluded from from that access so it's one of the sort of restate what I think you shared in my own words, to make sure I understood it, first of all.

David Crusoe: And then, secondly on the on the inclusion point.

David Crusoe: Here I am a 43 year old white guy i'm trying my best to sort of understand who.

David Crusoe: who feels like they see themselves in the things we create and so, in my case it's one of the properties that i'm really struggling with is a property for teens and for youth, who are younger I don't identify as a team anymore i'm very disappointed in that, but it's true.

David Crusoe: And, and something I continually wonder is how do I know how does one know who's missing right if I can't identify or I don't identify that population can't see themselves there, how do I discover that they are in fact not there have you run across that in your in your travels.

Malcom Glenn: yeah really great set of questions on the first question, I think you did a really good job of restating what I mentioned in my first response and it just draws me back to a really.

Malcom Glenn: A really I think thoughtful.

Malcom Glenn: mantra that i've heard repeated quite regularly amongst advocates in the disability community.

Malcom Glenn: And that's nothing about us without us.

Malcom Glenn: And that's this notion that.

Malcom Glenn: exactly right, you need to take into account.

Malcom Glenn: considerations for what we need early in the process.

Malcom Glenn: And if you build something and then come.

Malcom Glenn: Later, and ask us how it can be made accessible the likelihood is that it's not going to be easy to make it accessible, but if you really start thinking at the early stages of.

Malcom Glenn: Building or growing or creating something how it's going to impact certain communities how certain communities are going to be able to have that access.

Malcom Glenn: I think you're going to set yourself up for a much more inclusive set of products or services down the line, so I think that's exactly right holistic thinking of inclusion and then really making sure that as you're going on around your journey.

Malcom Glenn: you're assessing.

Malcom Glenn: The effectiveness of what you're doing.

Malcom Glenn: And I think it ties.

Malcom Glenn: A lot into your second question, which is how do you know when you're excluding people right.

Malcom Glenn: I think the first thing to do is to ask people who are not like you or in a lot of ways, ask people who are not like the team with whom you're working so if you look around.

Malcom Glenn: And you feel like your team is really homogenous then it's probably worthwhile to consult with people who look different or who have different perspectives, who have different experiences, or who approach things in a different way.

Malcom Glenn: And they can give you guidance on.

Malcom Glenn: Who might not be being taken into consideration.

Malcom Glenn: From there, I think, and this is an area where I get really excited about because it's been a major portion of what i've done over the course of my career is you really just have to have.

Malcom Glenn: conversations so once you identify hey these are some groups, these are some communities, these are some some folks out in the world.

Malcom Glenn: Who might not necessarily be well represented in what we're doing what we're building the policy we're thinking about whatever the case is.

Malcom Glenn: Then it's a matter of going and asking them and building trust with them through ongoing conversations humility around what you don't understand about what their Community probably does understand really well and then a willingness to actually take into account their feedback.

Malcom Glenn: You know, there is an element of this work that I think happens, a great deal in the corporate world.

Malcom Glenn: oftentimes that work kind of stops at that last bit where there's a willingness to go out and.

Malcom Glenn: identify the gaps there's a willingness to go and have conversations with folks who stand to benefit from the closing of those gaps, but there's not so much of a willingness to actually take the internal action to change the structure of the process, the product.

Malcom Glenn: In order to serve the needs of those people.

Malcom Glenn: And so I think it's really about stepping outside of ourselves and identifying people who are different from us, and as many different ways, as we can.

Malcom Glenn: Helping having them help us make an assessment of who might not be being included in what we're doing and then really going out and building trust with folks from those communities.

Malcom Glenn: and taking the feedback from what they tell us so that we can better reflect it in, and what we're doing and.

Malcom Glenn: It might sound like that is a relatively extensive process, and that would be, because it is.

Malcom Glenn: This work is not easy, and it is not.

Malcom Glenn: It is really time intensive, but it is really, really important, and so, if you actually do care about those outcomes, the only way to effectively reach those outcomes, is to have those conversations, as you said, as early as possible in the process.

David Crusoe: Now, can I appreciate that.

David Crusoe: And and there's a there's a there's something i've been wrestling with that's very much related.

David Crusoe: And it's a very simple question and i'm not sure, the answer is simple so maybe, maybe, as a former journalist and even as a current writer no thoughts here but.

David Crusoe: That is um, how do we, how do we truly learn about other people, what does it take is it isn't a matter of conversations what what do we do to genuinely learn about about other people who we might be serving or or attempting to serve.

Malcom Glenn: it's a great question and I think it does start with conversations.

Malcom Glenn: I think.

Malcom Glenn: You look around and you see so many challenging issues going on in not just this country but around the world and a lot of it does stem from a lack of conversations are lack of willingness to understand the experience of someone who is different than us.

Malcom Glenn: and a lack of empathy for that different experience in part because of our ignorance.

Malcom Glenn: And so I think so much can be done, and so many improvements can be made if we are willing to simply have those conversations.

Malcom Glenn: But it doesn't in there, I think it it's a real matter of having those conversations and then being really deliberate about what action you're going to take.

Malcom Glenn: I think a lot of times, people can have the conversations have an empathetic response and say oh gosh there's something that we can do to improve this but.

Malcom Glenn: The world can feel overwhelming the scale of problems can seem.

Malcom Glenn: impossible to conquer and so sometimes that can result in a little bit of paralysis around taking action, so I think having the conversations is.

Malcom Glenn: foundational and key but then really understanding how you're going to translate those conversations into action is almost equally important.

Malcom Glenn: And then I think the thing to keep in mind is.

Malcom Glenn: it's really valuable to have some perspective around what you can can't do so, you might have a conversation with someone from a group and recognize that there is a massive macro level problem.

Malcom Glenn: Around some institution that's doing a poor job of serving people from that group and you might.

Malcom Glenn: say what can I do in response to that, how can I actually improve this when you know, this is a government problem or a capitalist problem, or you know, an academic problem right, you know i'm not going to change, academia or.

Malcom Glenn: Capitalism or corporate America, you know, with just a little me, but what you can do is you can say okay well.

Malcom Glenn: let's start having conversations with other people, maybe people who do have better connections to institutions that have influenced their and is there a way that I can think about something that would be mutually beneficial for the government or the or the school or the company.

Malcom Glenn: That might have.

Malcom Glenn: agency over the plight of this person of these people.

Malcom Glenn: And so.

Malcom Glenn: start by having the conversations, but recognize that that's just the beginning of the process, only when you start to translate those conversations into real action and the action doesn't have to be.

Malcom Glenn: World changing small actions accumulating over time, or how we get to big actions and when those actions are informed by the conversations we have.

Malcom Glenn: With the people with lived experience I think it's more likely that those actions are actually going to result in some positive outcomes, at the end of the day.

Thank you.

David Crusoe: yeah that's hard, I appreciate your response, some is really something truly it's that that I that I think about in.

David Crusoe: doing my best to help create change in the world, but also, knowing that in a sense, I have a lot more learning to do to to accomplish that.

David Crusoe: I guess my last question would be related to what I have not asked you that I should have asked you, is there is there anything that you wish that I asked or something you would like to share that you think would be important for me to know about.

Malcom Glenn: yeah I appreciate that David, and again I appreciate you bringing me on to have this conversation as well, listen, I think.

Malcom Glenn: The sort of takeaway point if there is such a thing that I would make would be um.

Malcom Glenn: Institutions.

Malcom Glenn: are really just made up with people and I oftentimes think for the perspective of that institution is good or that.

Malcom Glenn: institution is bad.

Malcom Glenn: And the reality is no institution has any personality.

Malcom Glenn: Right no government, it has has a has a point of view, no company is is a good company or a bad company, you know no academic institution is is is thoughtful or not they're all made up of people who are.

Malcom Glenn: Pushing those institutions in one direction or another, and so.

Malcom Glenn: In this kind of harkens back to your previous question when you think about it impact, and we think about outcomes and I spend a lot of time thinking.

Malcom Glenn: about how we can move institutions towards the direction of equity.

Malcom Glenn: And it can be daunting but what I do practically is I find people within those institutions and I start trying to get them to understand why a change needs to be made and sometimes i'm doing that internally, at the very institutions where I work.

Malcom Glenn: Sometimes i'm doing that, through.

Malcom Glenn: Some of my other affiliations, sometimes i'm doing that, through nonprofit work sometimes people bring me on to kind of help them do that themselves, and I would say that.

Malcom Glenn: anytime something feels daunting anytime something feels overwhelming just realize it's all made up of sometimes.

Malcom Glenn: Quite a sizeable number, but some number of human beings who are making decisions based on a whole host of inputs and factors.

Malcom Glenn: And we have an opportunity with our voice with you know, ideally, an Internet connection and an ability to reach out to others to find people within those institutions to talk to them to understand what.

Malcom Glenn: What their perspective is and ideally understand how we can help them improve, and so I am oftentimes.

Malcom Glenn: overwhelmed by the size and scale of institutions and how much institutional change, I think, does need to be made in the in the way of equity, but the way I really make it palatable for myself is.

Malcom Glenn: I recognize that it's just individual people, and as long as I continue to engage with those people have conversations try to help them understand the perspective of other people.

Malcom Glenn: there's always an opportunity to get them to change, and I think this advice is as much for anyone who's listening, as it is for myself, but it is that.

Malcom Glenn: Every place is simply made up of.

Malcom Glenn: A larger number of people and by talking to those people working with those people and trying to help those people see a different perspective.

Malcom Glenn: that's how change is made, and I think if more people did that I think we could be more effective in making more change at scale for the people who need it most, and so my hope is that people.

Malcom Glenn: start to do that in a way that I think has become more challenging and less frequent in our country over the last couple of years yeah.

David Crusoe: Welcome Thank you so much change for the people who need it most it's really you know fundamentally boys and girls clubs moto moto.

David Crusoe: needed take that to my heart and really learn and pursue.

David Crusoe: equity in all its forms, for that audience, so thank you so so much for helping me on my own learning journey with that and for being willing to sort of document that along the way, I thank you so much.

Malcom Glenn: Of course, thank you for reaching out there and I appreciate the conversation.