David Crusoe: The cloud.

David Crusoe: All right, five for.

David Crusoe: Good afternoon, this is David caruso jumping back in for another conversation.

David Crusoe: With more than welcome so i'm joined here by two wonderful people from boys and girls clubs of America today i'm joined by London reeves and Sarah grizzle.

David Crusoe: And we're going to have a conversation about diversity equity inclusion and product.

David Crusoe: And so, for those of you who are joining, for the first time just you know this conversation and conversations like it are really a series of learning journey that i'm on as I learned more about how to create products for everybody.

David Crusoe: And so to do that i'm having conversations with people all over the place, London and Sarah are with the organization I work with in full disclosure, so I think they are awesome.

David Crusoe: But i'm sure that you will as well after we dive into the conversation and so London Sarah would you both mind introducing yourself to our listeners.

London Reeves_BGCA: Sarah take it take it away first.

Sarah Grizzle: Sure, my name is Sarah grizzle i've been with boys and girls clubs of America for about five years now.

Sarah Grizzle: Before that I worked at a local club boys and girls clubs of the smoky mountains in East Tennessee and where that I was a classroom teacher.

Sarah Grizzle: So definitely my space has been in educating teaching training, which is what I do now at boys and girls clubs of America I helped to kind of translate some of our youth development, research into practical information for those people who are working right with young people.

London Reeves_BGCA: And I am London reeves and, interestingly enough hours so just hit my five years, I want to say yesterday or Sunday for my time here boys and girls clubs of America.

London Reeves_BGCA: But prior to the here, I worked for my hometown organization for boys and girls club which I also grew up in so i'm a club kid myself.

London Reeves_BGCA: And in my current role i'm responsible for developing innovative programs and just activations for teens.

London Reeves_BGCA: Virtually and i've realized that you know that particular age group is i'm most passionate about when it comes to young people.

London Reeves_BGCA: Because they're that's that age where people just they just start to get it and they start to come into their own and can advocate for themselves and and start to communicate their thoughts and feelings about different things.

London Reeves_BGCA: So i'm glad to be here in a forest and having this discussion and see how we can keep things growing and going.

David Crusoe: that's awesome and London, Sarah Thank you so much, and you know London sort of picking back up where you really leave off.

David Crusoe: You know here I am 43 years old white guy how How would I go about learning about what teens are up to these days, what does it mean for me to learn about someone else who's not me how did that process look to you.

London Reeves_BGCA: For me, is honestly being you know just interested in in who they are, and what they like, and where they're from even starting with the basics.

London Reeves_BGCA: I do believe that we're all the summation of our experiences and so just having a conversation just asking the questions yeah of course they're the basic questions right like Where are you from what do you do, but I think when you think about.

London Reeves_BGCA: teenagers it's you know how do you spend your time, you know, are you kicking it with your friends, what do your friends look like, do you have the same school.

London Reeves_BGCA: So just asking questions and trying to make them as thoughtful as possible, because I feel as though you X thoughtful questions people open up a bit more.

London Reeves_BGCA: versus just the the questions to the small talk questions because, especially with teenagers, they can read through that real quick is like Okay, you have a hidden agenda.

London Reeves_BGCA: What do you ask me, these questions for versus like a casual thoughtful questions that i'm asking so as I say, to connect and get to know people as questions.

David Crusoe: yeah sorry anything to add to that.

Sarah Grizzle: yeah I think that's right it's about having this kind of open handed a curiosity about other people.

Sarah Grizzle: And a genuine one, especially when we're talking about teens they can see right through that.

Sarah Grizzle: I think a lot of times when we were specifically, since this is a conversation about developing products we're going into that with an agenda.

Sarah Grizzle: With this goal in mind that we're trying to guide towards not that that's a bad thing, but that can limit that conversation, and that can limit that curiosity so.

Sarah Grizzle: it's really coming in curious and asking the big questions that will give you kind of this full picture of who people aren't what they need.

David Crusoe: I appreciate those and actually i'll bring my own experiences to bear and through wondering in puzzling through this is.

David Crusoe: You know, in speaking with teens in the past one of two things, has happened, one I know i've gotten good, solid feedback or input filter feel conversation.

David Crusoe: But the other is that i've encountered situations in which I think that the young people are inherently either suspicious of me or i'm simply respond.

David Crusoe: With what they think I should know and want to hear So how do we break down that barrier what is there a way that you've learned to do that in working with young people.

Sarah Grizzle: it's hard when, particularly when we're trying to get feedback, a lot of times we're coming in, this is the first time they've met us they don't know us from whoever, and so I think that's a real challenge, the best way is through sustained relationship.

Sarah Grizzle: and making sure that you've connected with people who are in their lives, already who have that sustained relationship, if you can't have it.

Sarah Grizzle: I think that's one step.

London Reeves_BGCA: In our ads through I couldn't agree more, I actually have a funny story that i'm hesitant to share but i'm gonna hold on to that for, just in case I feel more comfortable.

London Reeves_BGCA: But I do think that, when it comes down to like, especially with teenagers, you have to Stewart them, just as you would like let's just say a donor or a partner.

London Reeves_BGCA: You have to cultivate that relationship with them and as Sarah mentioned, even with the people who are in their last those trusted people who are in their lives.

London Reeves_BGCA: And so the funny story that i'll share just for my experiences it's just that you know growing up, I didn't have the best relationship with my father, but I knew if I needed something.

London Reeves_BGCA: That first call couldn't be hey dad I need X that first call was hey Dan how are you how's life going how's work Oh, this was going on with me and then that next week or the week after that the second or third call is when I go in for actually what I need.

London Reeves_BGCA: So I feel the same way when it comes down to as needing something writing as needing feedback and input from teens it I feel as though we have to take the time to get to know them a bit more.

London Reeves_BGCA: and see where they see us as a trusted person who they can be completely honest with versus telling us what they want to hear, as you mentioned Dave before we can get to the real meat of what their thoughts are when it comes to products and designs of things.

Sarah Grizzle: I also like to sorry Dave I like to really just lean into the awkward a lot of times when i'm leading a training club staff i'll just say up front.

Sarah Grizzle: y'all doing this on zoom is weird I get that and because i'm stepping out to name it, I find that that often helps to break down the barriers, because otherwise, people are thinking it, but if I just name it and i'm like this is weird will do it, then that helps.

David Crusoe: I love it so let's imagine, now that we've been able to learn something about our audience of people who we want to engage in what we're producing.

David Crusoe: What does in the same sort of on the flip side of the same coin, what does it mean to then produce something that is itself authentic.

David Crusoe: What where does that what is, what does authentic mean, in the sense of a product that we might be delivering for someone is that is there such a term as it relates to a product, first of all, I might be barking up the wrong tree here.

London Reeves_BGCA: that's a great question, I have to sit in that for a while i'm going to let that awkwardness be known see that I have to sit in that, one day, that was a that's a good question.

London Reeves_BGCA: Where does it mean for our product to be authentic.

David Crusoe: In and i'll give you i'll give you everyone listening as well, a sense of where my question is coming from so.

David Crusoe: One of the pieces that i'm working on it boys and girls clubs of America something called my future.

David Crusoe: it's a platform that we produce for young people and so obviously here, I am a 43 year old white guy producing a platform for young people who are as young as about seven or eight all the way through about the age of you know 16 maybe 18 on the upper end.

David Crusoe: and doing so.

David Crusoe: Well, trying to hit a certain voice and tone and also understand the audience, but I think the work that I produce it's essentially like a work of art right it's this set of specifications and designs that then people interpret.

David Crusoe: That doesn't necessarily show that I fully understand my audience and so maybe it shows a sense of trying too hard, or trying in the wrong way it doesn't necessarily demonstrate authenticity.

David Crusoe: With respect to how the audience is understood, and I think that's where my question was coming from like what is it what does it take to produce something that truly truly understands the audience it's not not a simple thing I suppose.

Sarah Grizzle: yeah I don't think it's a simple thing just a couple of things coming to mind is like not positioning yourself, as this is the thing that's going to solve the problems right like acknowledging the limits of what we're trying to do.

Sarah Grizzle: And then throughout every step of the process is continuing to put the people out in front, who it's for right so, for example.

Sarah Grizzle: If we're working on some activities for teens through not just at the start, for brainstorming, but we want to have those teams voice throughout the entire process.

Sarah Grizzle: And even at the end that might even mean it's a teen hosting an event I know this is something that London is really passionate about and is going to be doing but it's including them through out the process.

Sarah Grizzle: A lot of times, I think we bring people in at the beginning, and then we realize it's hard to integrate through feedback in authentically and so for expediency, maybe we kind of fall off of that and then what at the end doesn't actually reflect what we hoped for, at the beginning.

London Reeves_BGCA: I think, Sarah really hit the nail on the head with it, there is that you know, for it to be authentic like what is what was the goal when the idea came about what was the goal, and then, how do you build from that and then even you know.

London Reeves_BGCA: Dave You said something about trying too hard, I think that when organizations and companies like try to serve everybody.

London Reeves_BGCA: Right like Sarah was mentioning like the end all to all things trying to to to provide a product for everybody might be a bit of a stretch to where you do try to do too much and trying too hard.

London Reeves_BGCA: But also just from the lens of it can't be authentic if you don't have if you know who you want your audience to be if you don't have people from that target.

London Reeves_BGCA: In the room helping when decisions are being made, or when designs are coming about and ideas and being thrown at the wall to see what sticks those members of that audience aren't in the room in those meetings to it won't be authentic.

London Reeves_BGCA: In my personal opinion.

David Crusoe: I appreciate that i'm gonna throw something out that that i'm now wrestling with due to what you share, and that is.

David Crusoe: let's take on the one hand, that it's like really hard to produce something that everyone can use fairly and equally and there there's a really good question there to take forward and investigate what does that mean.

David Crusoe: Well, at the same time, producing a product that.

David Crusoe: feels like.

David Crusoe: It pays homage to recognizes celebrates diversity equity and inclusion right so, on the one hand you produce something for a specific audience, on the other hand.

David Crusoe: One needs to create or can create something that's truly inclusive and speaks to everybody right what is there a line there what, how do we reconcile these two.

London Reeves_BGCA: um for me, I feel like it's a fine line it's not like a very thick one is easy to cross between the two right.

London Reeves_BGCA: um but for me when I think of all people that i'd go into anything, knowing that everybody's not going to like it.

London Reeves_BGCA: And for me to enter into with that drive and desire for everyone to like it or everyone to participate or for everyone to go out and buy this thing I feel as though would be creating a.

London Reeves_BGCA: unrealistic expectation for myself and for whatever it is that i'm working on are doing so I try to keep that in mind, like, how can I get focused.

London Reeves_BGCA: On like who the audience is that I want, I want to, of course, capture as many as possible right and serve as many as possible, but I know that I can't serve in I won't be able to serve everybody, because everyone was like the product I go into with that mindset.

Sarah Grizzle: When we kind of flattened designed to try and reach the mass like we have to recognize that so often, that means it's aimed towards like upper middle class white people right like that's kind of the generic.

Sarah Grizzle: In America, which is not the truth that like factual in any way it's not the truth right, and so I do like to think about the the people who are on the margins.

Sarah Grizzle: How can we design for those people, because so often there's going to be such incredible rich ideas there that are going to work for lots of people, but if we're focusing on just the mass.

Sarah Grizzle: Then I think flatten is the right word right that it takes out all of that diversity and uniqueness that can happen.

David Crusoe: So share with me a little more about that, what does it mean to produce something that does thrive in.

David Crusoe: thrives in the diversity of people and to your to your point.

David Crusoe: removes itself from the context of the right the.

David Crusoe: affluent white middle class designers like what is it what is a product look like that celebrates that, if anything, comes to mind examples that that would be helpful, like what what really works there, what are the tactics or techniques that make that happen.

Sarah Grizzle: that's a great question.

Sarah Grizzle: I don't know that I have the answer to frankly my.

Sarah Grizzle: My role has not been like product design necessarily I really view myself as a storyteller right and I view a lot of what I do as.

Sarah Grizzle: trying to get across a story, and I think that that has some applications to product design because that's as humans, we are drawn to story.

Sarah Grizzle: There is richness there, and there is there are ways that I can empathize because we know what the beats of a story are right, we know about those arcs so.

Sarah Grizzle: When we're thinking about designing for those margins, there are there are stories there, and there are specific stories there that can be raised up through the process.

David Crusoe: And Sarah I appreciate just thinking about what you've written so Sarah just by way of background authors substantial portions of the content and something called a club experience blog I believe it's club experience dot blog.

David Crusoe: And went when you've done that you really do both identify.

David Crusoe: needs within the population, I think of social and emotional learning or resilience, particularly with coven challenges and draw those stories out but also provide really positive go to solutions addressing those challenges right, so it isn't just that.

David Crusoe: seo you know, young people are really challenged these days it's that they are challenged and based upon what you are hearing knowing and understanding of population here things people can do to address that.

David Crusoe: So, I guess, maybe growing and what you shared it's like understanding that and explicitly addressing it through either a content or the design that's being being produced.

Sarah Grizzle: yeah.

London Reeves_BGCA: I don't know if I have a equivalent are better answer, there was there just came to be honest.

London Reeves_BGCA: I think it was pretty spot on yeah.

David Crusoe: yeah what um so what, what are we missing what what what should I have asked that that I that I haven't asked here if anything.

London Reeves_BGCA: I don't know that necessarily a question, but one thing that think about when I think about i'm.

London Reeves_BGCA: Like product design and just the people is just simply after like my train of thought is now escaping me now I apologize.

David Crusoe: that's okay.

London Reeves_BGCA: I know is right there, though, and I feel like it's coming back to me Oh, but I know it was yep So when I think about products and designs and whatever it may be, you know.

London Reeves_BGCA: And I think about diversity equity inclusion people being able to see themselves in the product and being able to fully show up also as themselves in the product.

London Reeves_BGCA: And so I think when I think about specifically like my feature right and and and something that we've discussed, and I think Sarah you might have been the one who alerted Larry.

London Reeves_BGCA: raise it up, which is the name situation and when users go to sign up not being able to write their name, how is spelled because it might have a hyphen or accent marker something along those lines.

London Reeves_BGCA: They can't show up fully as themselves, they can't write the name, as it is so i've just been able to see yourself in a products and be able to show up fully as yourself, I feel like it's really how to incorporate the all that we do when it comes to products and design.

Sarah Grizzle: I think something i've been thinking a lot about in my own journey into understanding ti and specifically to anti racism is the acknowledgement that.

Sarah Grizzle: That sometimes i'm going to get things wrong that I have had wrong beliefs in the past right whether knowingly or unknowingly right, and I think kind of letting go of that personal Defense mechanism of like.

Sarah Grizzle: I want to be like no but I wasn't wrong I didn't mean it no just Okay, I was wrong and now i've learned why, and now I know better.

Sarah Grizzle: And I think when we think about product design, again, there are times that we're going to get something wrong and we need to not be defensive about that and just be willing to say all right, what do we do better, how do we make it better.

Sarah Grizzle: And that's that can be hard, but it can also be really beautiful.

Sarah Grizzle: You yeah.

London Reeves_BGCA: And just the answer again to that series and that's why it's so important, in my opinion, have the right people in the right room, because I think in into into make it clear that.

London Reeves_BGCA: To fully express yourselves and your thoughts and your feelings towards whatever it is, you might be working on, because otherwise there'll be no growth and no.

London Reeves_BGCA: forward movement, you know what I mean because, again, we all have our biases whether unconscious are constants and until like conversation starts to happen.

London Reeves_BGCA: We can't really truly move forward in the right direction.

London Reeves_BGCA: So yeah the right tool being in the right room when we think about again like their product and design, because we don't know what we don't know.

London Reeves_BGCA: And because we're summation of our experiences somebody has my house and I like ooh we should do this or change that are completely do away with this, all together, because where i'm from X are my people you know Y or Z so i'm.

London Reeves_BGCA: Bringing everybody together since April, make sure representation is always there.

David Crusoe: that's helpful Thank you so much, thank you both so much um before we wrap up i'd like to ask you, Sir, is there anything else that we've missed.

Sarah Grizzle: nothing's coming to mind, I appreciate you think to have this chat today and that we're exploring all this because it's really important yeah.

London Reeves_BGCA: yeah did I like the word explored soon as there.

London Reeves_BGCA: I think that conversations like this are very important, and they need to just happen more often, because he I say that, too, because I think about.

London Reeves_BGCA: When I think about retail products right and some of the ads and marketing campaigns that are going out from different like clothing stores over the last two or three years.

London Reeves_BGCA: It was just like who's in the room and made that decision and thought about will be okay.

London Reeves_BGCA: So were you then start questioning yourself and say oh was that intentional was a strategic or did someone just really not know that that was not a good idea, so the right tool being in the right room.

London Reeves_BGCA: This is great, thank you for inviting us.

David Crusoe: yeah thank you both very much I think you know one.

David Crusoe: One thing it's very clear to me is that you are both the right.

David Crusoe: People in the right room to have the conversation, so I really appreciate, you know us as creating creating that dialogue and and being vulnerable not dialogue, London, thank you for sharing the story that you shared.

David Crusoe: And Sarah Thank you so much for sharing all of your experiences as well, so I appreciate the conversation.

David Crusoe: and we look forward to continuing this in the future, so thank you once again.

David Crusoe: and have a great day.

Thanks.

David Crusoe: awesome cool thanks guys i'm gonna hit not record now.